Dismantling Racism: Why Should Whites Care? An interview with Dr. Kathy Obear

Written by Dr. Mollie Monahan-Kreishman

I recently had an opportunity to interview Dr. Kathy Obear. Thank you, Kathy, for taking time to share your wisdom with the ACPA Coalition for Women’s Identities!

MMK: Why should white student affairs professionals care about dismantling racism?

KO: Whites are responsible to serve all students. We are shirking our responsibilities if we participate in the unproductive belief that people of color should serve people of color. We can’t do our job fully if we don’t have the competencies to look at our policies and practices with a race lens, and to interrupt institutional racism. We need to have the ability to talk about racism and white supremacy, and to understand how white culture enforces a way of being that is harmful and limiting.

MMK: What do you think keeps us from engaging more fully?

KO: White supremacy allows us to live a privileged life without having to see it as privileged. My success is based on my white privilege as opposed to only on my competence. I had incredible opportunities – assumed competence, as opposed to demonstrated competence, for example. The illusion that we are smarter and more competent is being spoon-fed to whites. It is painful to recognize that, and we want to avoid that pain so we rationalize our way out of it. Part of the Imposter Syndrome for whites, particularly white men, under the bravado, are the questions: “How good really am I and did I really earn this? I’ve got talent, but did I earn that promotion? Or was it really just because I’m white?” It is easier to think that it is all about how great I am as opposed to considering that many opportunities were given to me because I am white.

MMK: How does fear play a role?

KO: Most whites live in fear that we are going to be called out as racist and that this will affect our careers and our relationships. I don’t live in that much fear anymore. I will never be free of white supremacist beliefs, and I have enough experience where I’ve stayed in the dialogue, and I’ve learned to show up differently over the years. I hope that I continue to do so: to pause, to ask for more information, or just say yes I get what I just did and apologize. And then hold space to hear about the impact of my actions. I am better now at sitting with what I did, exploring what was going on for me, and getting together with white colleagues who can help me continue to do my self-work so I show up more effectively in this work.

MMK: What does living with integrity mean to you?

KO: When we live with integrity, we value equity, inclusion, and social justice. The problem is that our behavior doesn’t always reflect this. For the most part, whites are only listening to whites. We see the sexist or homophobic microaggressions, for example, but we miss the racism. It has taken me years to learn how to truly live with integrity. I am still learning. I’m willing own that I don’t know it all, and to be in the process of unlearning all of the racist beliefs that I’ve been taught to see as truth throughout my life.

MMK: How have you seen relationships shift in relation to doing this work?

KO: I used to lead a very segregated life at work and at home. I’ve made an effort to interrupt my own white supremacy in those spaces and others. Out of that has come a beautiful gift and that is more authentic relationships with people of color. What an incredible gift! Now, if I went into it expecting more relationships with people of color, then I would ruin it. But I also have a handful of whites I could pick up the phone and say I’m swirling and they would show up out of love and care, and support me in my growth. So – I have more authentic relationships with people of color and whites because I do my best to show up more authentically.

MMK: Can you talk about the concept of the “good white”?

KO: When I go to SJTI [Social Justice Training Institute], for example, I get to show up fully and lovingly and in a nonjudgmental way, as opposed to the “good white” way that shames like I used to. It isn’t productive or authentic and gives people the illusion that they don’t have more work to do. All whites have more work to do. So when I show up authentically at SJTI, and I own all of who I am, as opposed to presenting as someone who knows everything and shames those who don’t, I get to help other whites do their inner healing work to disrupt internalized dominance and to understand that they are one of many. I get to be part of truly creating liberation, and the joy, freedom and community that comes with that. That a big reason why whites should care.

MMK: And what about our humanity?

KO: I have said and even written that I sold my soul for white privilege. I think about how I numbed myself out so that I wouldn’t feel the pain of racism in other people’s lives. As soon as I saw it, I experienced such a deep, visceral pain. To know that I get all of this privilege because so many hundreds of millions and billions of people don’t have access to the things that I do. Even now as we are sitting in this conversation, I’m not letting my body feel it. It is another one of those existential milestones. The only reason I have this privilege is because of white supremacy and racism. For example, the only reason I’m not in jail is because I’m white. The illegal things I’ve done, I’ve gotten the benefit of the doubt for every single one. I’ve gotten second, third and fourth chances all at the expense of people of color who don’t even get one chance. And to realize that I was taught and therefore did not see people of color in their full worthiness, deserving of the same quality of life as I do, safety. That’s a heavy thing to sit with. I participated in, colluded in racist systems that privileged me and consistently oppressed people of color. I didn’t care enough to ask the question, “Is what I’m doing really meeting the needs of all students? And not just white students?” Nobody ever challenged me to think differently and to do my work differently – or at least I never heard them.

    How many people would have a different life if I had been able to show up to dismantle racism and create racial justice decades ago? I sold my soul for the lie and the illusion that I’m smarter and better than people of color. Today I feel so much more deeply. Earlier in my life I had to cut off my feelings. To survive in many white systems, you have to cut yourself off. Today, I feel the deep rage and pain of racism and the colonization of Native people. I get access to my full range of emotions. I used to lead such a narrow, sheltered, and limited life. And not that it is huge now, but there is more room for more people across racial identities. I have more passion and energy and purpose to create the world that I believe is possible with a wider variety of folk across identity including racial identity and indigenous identity.

MMK: Okay, so can we end with the same question that we started with? Why should whites care?

KO: Sure! We should care because we are isolated. We live in a narrow bubble. When we care and when we start to take action to dismantle racism, the world opens up to us. To know that we are a part of many movements that are building a more equitable, socially just world – to know that is possible. I don’t want to live any other way! The promotions, the money, the accolades, the illusion of safety – I was willing to give up a lot for that. It comes with costs.

I have no doubt that there are places that I’m not hired because I’m perceived to be too out there and I’m okay with that. For the years that I have left I want to live my passion, and be in deep service to the world. There are people who may not ever talk to me again, but oh well. There are so many others who I am able to connect with now.

Why should whites care? There is a life that you could live that is so much more full of care and service and purpose! We need to decolonize our minds and decolonize our spaces. I still see all of the pain, but I’m not consumed by it because I’m taking action. I can live with the reality of it because I’m actively working to dismantle racism and create greater liberation for all. I’m not stopped, stuck, frozen in fear, consumed by rage – I’m not there, anymore. I know that I’m one of millions of people actively working to deconstruct racism and white supremacy and create a world of true community and peace. Doesn’t get better than that!

MMK: Thank you for taking some time for us today, Kathy!

KO. You bet! I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation!