Global Connections #4: A chat among Hong Kong-ers working in American Higher Ed

Global Connections #4: A chat among Hong Kong-ers working in American Higher Ed

 

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Bianca Chau  0:00 

Thank you both for joining me on Global Connections today. This is such an amazing opportunity, especially for me to sit down with two other hongkongers working in higher education in the US. Before we dive into our discussion today, could I have both of you introduce yourself to our audience first?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  0:15 

Hi, my name is Jeffrey Tsang. I am currently at Michigan State University. I work as an academic advisor in the College of Engineering. So working with undergraduate students, I have been in the US for almost 10 years, I went to college at Oregon State University and got my bachelor's there. And then right after that, went to the University of Vermont, for my master's program in higher education and Student Affairs, and then came to Michigan for a job, they were willing to sponsor my h1 visa, and for two terms, so. And now they're sponsoring my green card. So it's been a great time at Michigan State. But I'll be here for a little bit longer, because I'll be pursuing a PhD here as well. Um, so MSU is treating me great.

 

Vicky Lee  1:17 

Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is Vicky Lee. I'm currently the international student advisor and student engagement coordinator at the office for international students and scholars at Michigan State University. I came to Michigan State actually in 2013, to pursue a bachelor's degree. Right after I finished my bachelor's at Michigan State, I went to Vanderbilt University to pursue my graduate coursework in higher education administration. Upon my graduation from Vanderbilt, I was actually able to come back to my alma mater, to an office where my interest in higher education and student first actually started, so kind of come back to full circle. unfortunate enough, the office was able to sponsor me currently as well. My role is a hybrid position where I do a little bit of immigration advising plus a little bit of engagement programming work plus a little bit of internal external campus partnership, collaboration projects and stuff. So yeah, Michigan has been great. I spend, now that I think about it probably 1/4 of my entire life in Michigan. So

 

Bianca Chau  2:31 

I wonder how you got to know each other, just because you work in the same institution doesn't mean you know each other. So could you tell us how you got to know each other?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  2:42 

Um,

 

Bianca Chau  2:43 

it's actually really interesting.

 

Jeffrey Tsang  2:45 

Late 20,

 

Vicky Lee  2:46 

it was 2015 when I was actually figuring out which graduate school to apply to, and I was like, really active in different graduate school, graduate students or student affairs face. And I was like, This name is very Hong Kong. Let's reach out. And it took him two months to respond to my first. But then we connected and then, and then fast forward to a year later, he started his position at MSU while I'm already my graduate program, and I came back to Michigan for a visit. And it just happened that I was in the international student office, turned scholar office and my former supervisor was processing his eye night and I was like, Dude, this is a Hong Kong passport.

 

Bianca Chau  3:33 

I probably when I started.

 

Vicky Lee  3:35 

Yeah, you first started. I don't know if we there. Yeah. Maybe not January, I won't drive back in January. But anyway, that's how we first met. But then we never talked at all until what happened afterwards. And the social Yeah. A colleague of mine who was also I appeared identifying was my former supervisor. She invited me to come to the some a APIDA faculty staff Association. And then that's how we, for some reason, got caught reconnected while we never talked before. And then, interestingly enough, Jeff connected me to our third roommate, via a Google Doc, where the APIDA Undergraduate Student Association was putting out demands and statements responding to COVID, about a year ago. And yeah, I've met my other roommate on a Google Doc.

 

Unknown Speaker  4:35 

And that's how the three of us kind of live together right now and really grinding through this COVID pandemic work from home time.

 

Bianca Chau  4:45 

That's awesome. It's good to have people that really understand the struggle and kind of get to struggle through together. I think that's so important. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about your identity. as being from Hong Kong, how has that shaped the way you work with students and coworkers,

 

Jeffrey Tsang  5:06 

it's interesting because even when I lived in Hong Kong, I went to, you know, international school my whole life. So I already felt, you know, different from like the locals in Hong Kong. So you already tried to differentiate yourself, like, very early in your life, and then you come to the US. And then people like, they assume that you're just like, from the area. So when I was in Oregon, they assumed I was like, you know, I grew up in like Portland or Seattle, and like, it was just very normal. And then when people when I tell people that I'm from Hong Kong, they're like, Wow, I didn't expect that. And it's interesting, because I don't think he's like, in how in Asia, you never, like, identify with being like Asian, like, that is just not something that you are cognizant of, right? Like, when you're in Asia, you're like, Oh, I'm Chinese, or I'm from Hong Kong. I'm like, that's it, right? And you don't really need to go in depth, or be like, more high level of saying, oh, I've aged, like, no, yeah, we know, you're Asian, um, but in the US, like, this whole, like Asian identity, it's, it's very different, like, you never, like no one ever tells you that, you know, when you come to the US that you form this new identity of yourself. And with say, like, you know, working with a lot of like, students from China, like, they always, like, try to, like relate with you. And I'm like, I don't really relate that much. Like, even though I was an international student. And, you know, I have that, you know, international student experience, my experience very different, because I don't have any language, like, any language barriers in class or in like, regular, like, life or getting adjusted, like my experience was very different. And I think, I think my the complexity comes with, you know, how do you identify with being Asian, Asian American? When you're not American? I think right now I identify a little bit more being American, because I'm already I've already been here for so long. But I think it's still in this like, awkward, like, hybrid phase.

 

Vicky Lee  7:34 

Yeah, I agree. I think as long as your visa holding, you're kind of in like a special category that you can really fit in. I think being from Hong Kong, I went to, I did my diploma program. So I spend my last two years of high school in an international school and all the times before that in a local secondary school and Primary School, which is elementary school. I think that would add a little bit more of like a different unique experience, or transition, transitioning from where I was to where I am right now, I definitely think that being from Hong Kong is a privilege, because you are able to interact with a lot of a very diverse group of people, even before I traveled to the US for the first time when I was 18. And of course, like coming to the US was, was still a big adjustment, but you know, I was able to find my my group off hongkongers back then to two, they were able to really empower me and support me throughout my transition. And now that I'm a staff member working in an international student scholars office, I am fortunate that you know, they understand that dynamic, that complexity, but I think working with students has been interesting though. As a lot of us know, majority of our international student population is from China and so being a Hong Kong or working with them and their family members and their parents on various platform either that be which had through zoom, you know, events and I was fortunate enough to also travel to China to meet new students and their families in those settings. It kind of put me in a very interesting spot where Okay, well do I identify myself as Chinese Chinese? Do I self disclose that I'm from Hong Kong? Or am I just gonna fake my Mandarin to a degree that they see me as part of them? I think that has been a bit challenging to to navigate. And I think that it's the same with you know, some students or other professional who are maybe from regions like Taiwan or even our country. And colleagues who are from Quebec, like, how do you, you know, identify yourself? Are you Canadian enough? Are you you know, Chinese enough? Are you Taiwanese enough? Are you Hong Kong are enough? Like, I think a lot of those things adds on to the complexity. But that experience that transition, and that whole package really challenged me to really think about diversity, equity and inclusion in a different perspective. Because I think that will allow us to really be a little more empathetic and think in a more holistic way, on how we approach the DEI and how we really think about how to support best support our students per se,

 

Bianca Chau  10:45 

How do you sort of reconcile the intersectionality of your identities of being Asian, and you know, at some point in your life, right now I consider myself especially I'm Asian, from Asia, but kind of on that spectrum of the Asian identity, I guess I'm progressing towards the Asian American part where Jeff, you mentioned a little bit about it. Um, and then now being from Hong Kong, in particular, on top of that being a visa holder. And it could be other parts of your identities. How do you navigate your identity in the APIDA community, especially at a time like this now with with COVID, and a lot of discrimination against Asian folks?

 

Vicky Lee  11:36 

Well, I guess I can kind of start off again, like, I don't particularly think that I need to, like when I first started, right, as a staff member, starting a full time job, or even during graduate school, what do I know about APIDA really, other than Oh, I'm one of the two agents in my cohort. And then after moving to moving back to Michigan for a full time job, I always just identified myself as international, I'm not exactly APIDA. And my office literally worked with the international population. And I knew majority of the staff member in that office even before I started, so I never really had to go through that transition. I always knew that already had connections, even before I got I was back. And so I think that that was something that really helped me. But it's really gradually starting from, it's just like, Bianca and I texted twice, two times, three times a week and talk about everything. And oftentimes is whenever things happen in Hong Kong, and you realize, Oh, snap, I actually wanted to talk to someone who was so far away from home to really get things processed. And that was a time when I realized, Oh, yeah, I think I really need to find a community where they would understand what I'm going through, like, not only like speaking Cantonese, that's like a different story. But, you know, I just want someone who can resonate with my experience and really get some of these incidents and, and, you know, whatever happening around the world, to just process it and make sure that I am not the only one who is feeling like isolated or struggling with getting something processed emotionally. with, you know, recent incidents and Atlanta how we have gotten, I have gotten a lot more active, involving myself in the Faculty and Staff Association for the appeared on Asian faculty and staff group in MSU. You can see like, you know, being part of that community, you're not only helping yourself, but you're also empowering students as a faculty or staff member. And from there, you can really start to really dive into what is actually the gap between, okay, what the appeal community is doing, and what my office is doing? And where's the gap? And how can I advocate for my, especially international Asian students, who which in our institution is vast majority of them, like, How can I be a voice for those students and advocate in different capacity? And how can that whole experience being involved with other faculty and staff identified as a PR Asian can also help to support my mental health being and even in some capacity, professional development as well? So

 

Jeffrey Tsang  14:42 

I think that, you know, being in the US, you can't really like differentiate yourself, you know, oh, I'm from I'm from like, Asia, Asia, like I I'm exempt from, you know, hearing, you know, being discriminated against or here Like racist things like in the grocery store, like, you can't just remove yourself from that, right, you can't remove yourself from that experience. Because other people who are doing these things they can tell, you know, you, you will be grouped together, regardless of if you like it or not, regardless of if you are vocal about it or not, like, for us that we kind of do just blend in to the US culture. And that might also, you know, just made me think about how it might also tie back into, like, our upbringing in Hong Kong, you know, being like a former, like British colony, like we were all born with, like, when it was still, you know, a British colony, and, you know, how we've always had to sort of blend in, you know, like, and you're coming from a culture where culture and a place where we are the majority to a place that you are not, I think it makes us hyper aware, because we grew up in Hong Kong, we, when we learn to, you know, blended and do not make, like, a fuss about things. But then when you finally realize that you are really in the minority, and there is actually not that many of you here, and like you can count them with like, you know, one hand then I think you realize that, you know, there is like a strength in numbers and also with like, shared experiences, because like, even even as part of the, you know, APIDA faculty and staff, community, like there are people that are probably the same, you know, situation as you or they've been in the same situation as you. And now they are, you know, either like fully like citizens because they gone through the same process as you like through work visa, and then green card, permanent residency, and then finally become a citizen. But you still know until you like, talk to them. I think there are definitely more commonalities, then you would just assume you just assume, oh, everyone was born here, you know, everyone was born here, and they grew up here the whole life, when in essence, like there is still that, you know, shared experience. So whether you you're born here, or you immigrated here, when you were young, or you came for college like us, I think that there's still that similar common experience.

 

Vicky Lee  17:42 

And I think one thing good to note is that so as being from Hong Kong, we identify as Asian Asian, we have probably encountered quite a bit of different Asians from different countries around the continent. Not continent. Is it a continent?

 

Bianca Chau  18:05 

A huge continent.

 

Vicky Lee  18:08 

Sorry

 

it's, it's more like, okay, I can kind of make an assumption based on Oh, I see Bianca, I see Jeff, oh, I think they are Chinese, like kind of, from those kind of country and region. But to other groups that are not APIDA or Asian identifying, they might not even have a cool like all of us with like dark hair, yellow skin, or just Asian. So like piggyback on what Jeff has mentioned, about like those experiences those discriminatory act, we probably will still get the same. We don't get like a special permit, just because we're from Hong Kong, that we are exempt from a lot of the discrimination or a lot of you know, being targeted in some capacity or not. And of course, you know, being a visa sponsored, individual like that is somewhere inside of us, we won't just put a sticker on our forehead and say, Hey, yo, I'm on a visa, like, that's not how it works, of course, and you are not trying or at least I am not trying to, like seek attention that way. And so in order to find someone who would really understand my struggle, I think, identify allies in this situation and finding that community. That's why that's also part of the reason why I think like being part of such a community is important. I mean, personally, like I'm still on the WeChat group with the Chinese faculty Club, which is really foreign born Chinese national faculty and staff members who are in MSU. I still get updates from them. But do I identify more with that community because more even more of them might be identified. Sponsor individual? I think it depends on what issue are you talking about, right? Like, in terms of cultural adjustments, I really don't know if that group really can provide me that much of an insight. Because, again, I've been here for a while already. I do think that Hong Kong again, has given me quite a diverse experience to start off with, language wasn't really a barrier for me. After two years in an international school, before I came to the US, I think my English is not that bad. And so I think, you know, oftentimes, it's more like, where do you opt in to be part of? And in what ways do you think that community could be beneficial to your personal development? Or how do you find that niche where you really feel like you fit in,

 

Bianca Chau  20:52 

you both mentioned, about getting support? I think with the APIDA community, I've naturally gravitated towards them. Because culturally, I feel that that would be my natural tendency to go towards if I needed some sort of support. But I have realized that in interacting with a lot of APIDA, folks is that there's a lot of trauma within that community that I don't relate with, that's very much intergenerational as well. And so that's something that I, I have felt trying to be a part of the APIDA community, as I wonder for you, where do you get your sort of support? You mentioned allies, who are your allies?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  21:40 

I think, that definitely, you know, at first, it was kind of awkward, you know, finding like community and like that APIDA community, like the Asian American community, because you feel like an outsider, because you, you don't really like you identify as Asian American, and, you know, like, in our field, you know, in higher ed and Student Affairs is your your all about connections, and you don't really, like you want to try to find people that are similar to you especially like, if you're looking for like mentorship and just people that you can go to for advice, you know, your community. But then I think that, with time, you sort of reconcile the experience that Oh, actually, like, their experience is not that significantly different than mine. And we can find, you know, that common, like common ground that like in terms of your identity, and your culture, that it's not really that much different, and they get to learn about us, you know, in ways that they probably didn't expect, either. And I feel like every time in, like, one of the faculty staff meetings, like they always learn something new about us. And I mean, I guess it's the same with them, right? I we learn new things about them like, and I think that is how we sort of like balanced Oh, well, even if you don't identify as Asian American, I get other ways to find community within the same people.

 

Vicky Lee  23:33 

Yeah. And I think like, you know, it really depends on individual preferences, right? I don't think as an Asian as a sponsored individual, who has been here for who knows how many years depending on when have you started your American dream journey? It is very hard for folks like us to find a mentor who really have who has very, very similar experience that us like, you know, like, I probably have never met anyone, like really similar to me, who is especially from Hong Kong. And so, you know, you give and take, you really try to find a mentor who can best support you. Some of my best mentor. Some of them are collocations, some of them that are rather American who has been here on refugee status and on in state here, like those are really good mentors. And I personally think that other than my really good Caucasian mentor, who has been providing me a lot of you know, professional development opportunities and really have empowered me to do something more than I could. The minority identifying mentors have really provided me insight in terms of how I can strive in the US as, quote an outsider to some degree, like We all know like being an sponsored individual, we have been called alien in literal government paperwork for years until these past past few weeks or months. And so how do you find your niche of people who would really understand where you're at? And I think for folks who have international experience, sure, but also, what are some of the people who you think can provide you with the most support that you need, for instance, Jeff has mentioned, oh, I rely on the APIDA community, because other than that piece that may be they went to school where, oh, I brought smelly lunch to school that phase, we don't go through that phase. Not saying that they would. But you know, that's like one of the examples, but the other experiences are probably very similar. I chat with my mentor who was, you know, minority identifying gives me so many advice in terms of how to strive as a minority. And I think those are still, you know, valuable, like asset for me to grow professionally or even personally, in the US. And, again, from what Jeff has mentioned, I learned new things from APIDA, faculty and staff group all the time. And I think, you know, one thing that I really think, aside from all of these is being a lifelong learner, it's like critical for us who wanted to, quote, survive, or even thrive in a foreign land, how can we bring up the best of us? And how can we empower our students to bring out the best of themselves, especially given that in my work capacity, I work with international students majority.

 

Bianca Chau  26:41 

So when sometimes I'm going through some challenges, my mom would say, remind yourself why you were there in the first place. And that will give me fire to continue, right? My family thinks I'm, like a wedding planner, almost. Like, you know, they'll tell me, you know, you wanted a life here. I myself identify as Chinese and Japanese. So, you know, being in Hong Kong was a little bit difficult for me, yes, I look like most people, but for some reason, either. It's the way I walk or whatever people in the local university, I went to knew I wasn't from there. I like exude some sort of aura that tells them I felt local. So I came here to kind of see what it's like in the US. And this, what we call the world of the land of freedom.

 

Vicky Lee  27:33 

my search committee for my current job back in 2018. They asked me what is my purpose? And like, What do you mean? What's my purpose? Like, no one has ever asked you that question. And when you brought this question up, I kind of thought about this, because back then, when I was looking for a job, after all these years of school, I did not take any time off between undergrad and grad and I graduated early in undergrad. So my purpose back then was I want to make my mom proud. I grew up in a single parent family, and my mom is the only supporter along with my grandma and my uncles and my aunts. And so I've always thought that, you know, making my mom proud is my one job. And then after I got my big girl job after grad school, first full time job that I get paid. After like a couple of weeks of working, I told my best friend at the time, I said, I don't know what my purpose is. Because I think my mom is proud of me already, then that is the time when I realized what is my own purpose. So I think you know, gradually as you really think about what you do, and how do I remind myself of that fire that I want to keep going is whenever I think about the relationship that I have built with some of the students I have worked with, I still text with a lot of them, they would come to me for relationship advice. They would come to me and ask about you know, career advice, and you would still hang out virtually or in person. When situation allows. I think those are the moments that really reminds me I've Okay, I think all along. I just wanted to help people and you know, help other people define themselves and those student leaders who are doing amazing, they're doing, they're getting their dream internship, they are doing phenomenal seeing them. And they will tell me that Oh, yeah, you know, you and another staff member was really the two that really empowered me and challenged me to be who I am today. Those are the little reminders that really somehow reminds me of who I am and what I wanted to do long term. I think those are the moments that really light that fire to be like okay, Vicky, you can persist and keep going on. I'm really not in this job for the money. I'm really in this job for the satisfaction.

 

Jeffrey Tsang  30:03 

I think that, you know, having spent so much time in the US already is sort of like your motivation to keep going. Because even if I feel like if we go back to Hong Kong, it's not the same anymore. You know, like, besides the fact with, you know, everything that's happening, you know, it's just that you've been gone for so long, like, I've been gone for 10 years. And it even like, every time I go back, it's kind of like a familiar but unfamiliar place. Like, you can still remember some other things, but like, some of the some of the environment is just so different.

 

Vicky Lee  30:49 

Part of it is also maybe the three of us would agree on the same thing. It's like, Student Affairs is such a westernized idea that really only the US, Canada, and maybe Germany, in some part of Europe really values this. And so oftentimes, when I'm like, okay, mom wants me to go back to Hong Kong to, you know, move back just for the sake of moving back, I don't know what job can I find, I think that is something that I'm like, maybe I should just stay for a little longer to really figure out to recalibrate what I can do, other than in higher ed and Student Affairs, that maybe by that time, that might be a time where I can, you know, move to a new place, as in either moving back to Hong Kong or moving to another place to continue my professional and personal development.

 

Bianca Chau  31:39 

I think what you're talking about is also part of the pain points, and maybe even beauty of just progressing through life as a young adult, it's also trying to navigate life itself, and then also life here in the US. So last, but not least, I'd like to ask, do you have any words of wisdom to any international folks that are pursuing a life here in the US, and especially a career in Student Services,

 

Jeffrey Tsang  32:09 

I think my advice would be to get as much feedback and input as you can from people you trust. And then also make your own decisions, because I think you so many people can tell you about all the different ways you can get into this field, that you can stay in the US. But at the end of the day, like, so many of it won't apply to you. Because they come from a completely different situation. You know, even I think for the three of us, like, we also had a very different situation in terms of like, how we got to the US how we got our sponsorship, and what's next for us. And I think, you know, gathering as much information and, you know, hearing from as many people as you can, and obviously, don't spend all your time doing that. But I think, you know, the more you can hear about, like, the different scenarios people have gone through, and the different ways they've been able to, you know, manage all of this, the better because, you know, the more information you have, the better you are equipped to, you know, make the decision for yourself, like, whether that's how to negotiate with your employer, or, you know, okay, my, my, my work pieces of what now, and obviously, like, I had to talk to so many people to figure out. When was the right time to ask about permanent residency? Because I didn't want to wait until like, my last year of my h1 bgb asking for residency. So I asked, you know, as soon as they renewed by my age, like I asked him, yeah, my second term he I asked, because, you know, that seemed like, the best time and it was before COVID. So we'll try to like, you know, start the process early. Obviously, I didn't know that it was going to turn into this. But, um, and yeah, I mean, like, even if I was to give advice to others, I mean, I would tell them, but it's sort of like a, there's also a disclaimer, like, we also have been working in a very unique situation that might not happen in our lifetime, like ever again. So, you know, listen to as much feedback as you can and then make your own decision.

 

Vicky Lee  34:39 

Yeah,

 

I'm totally agree with what Jeff just mentioned, I think I'm going to tackle it a little

 

differently with three different approaches, just because I'm very type A. I think number one, definitely persistence is critical for international students, and especially folks like us who does who may or may not have a stem background, just because As rpts limited your skill set is not as, quote, technical, whether your position can be justified as a specialty occupation or not, I think, like really having that grid having that persistence in terms of okay. At what point should I take a break and self care at what point should I persist through? I think that is critical. And that also comes back to why I support and a community is extremely critical. Like, I really don't know how many times have, I really reach out to be our guy and talk about all the visa related frustration that I've been through over the past who knows how many years, even though I myself does part of the immigration advising pieces, my daily job. And I think, number two is, as someone who came to the US to start an undergraduate degree, I never knew of the field officer first before before then. And so this field, higher education and Student Affairs was really new to me. And I think once you were able to identify that passion of yours, either that be late in undergrad or during graduate school, you really found that specific functional area that you're interested in, really, from there start to do your networking either. That'd be two different Facebook groups that are kind of set up specifically for essay pros, essay grads, reach out to your allies. Some would argue, you know, joining professional association would help. I think that is kind of like a personal decision, it really depends. But that is really the time where once you know which functional area really focus on that and kind of develop and see where we can get from here to there.

 

And I think last piece of advice, I think this is going to be really practical and to really know about immigration stuff. Like either that'd be basic f1 benefits OPT CPT. Either, that'd be knowing the pathway to permanent residency from F visa to H, green card, like knowing the basic, I think is critical so that you can manage your own expectation moving forward, there is no, you know, there's really no, nothing that is like, like a magic, right, like immigration regulation is very black and white. And sometimes you just need to manage your expectation as much as we know that we wanted to stay, we wanted to continue, what are some of the possible pathways or plan B, so you can take on this journey? I think that is extremely critical as well. But ultimately, I know like, these last words of wisdoms might be very harsh, or, you know, to some degree practical and also discouraging to some degree, but that, again, it comes back to how can you find your community so that you will know that you're not the only one going through that like, I cannot even imagine if I have not met your guy and some other professionals, when I was in grad school, how was I able to get through that job search process, because you get way more rejection than your other cohort mates who might be applying for jobs at the same time, you will have a lot more limitation depending on your own job search criteria. And all you are going to be defeated a lot more times compared to your your cohort made given that, you know, job search for domestic students are already challenging. So how do you find your support? I think that is also extremely critical as well.

 

Bianca Chau  38:41 

Thank you so much for sharing your story and words of wisdom. I feel so empowered just by talking to you this morning. And I I know that others will feel the same way after listening to this. And I definitely look forward to conversations like this periodically. And even though we are so far from each other, I think one of the strengths of international folks is that we're actually pretty good at long distance relationships, whether that's friendship, relationship with parents and even romantic relationships and that we have that grit that Vicky was saying to move forward.

Bianca Chau  0:00 

Thank you both for joining me on Global Connections today. This is such an amazing opportunity, especially for me to sit down with two other hongkongers working in higher education in the US. Before we dive into our discussion today, could I have both of you introduce yourself to our audience first?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  0:15 

Hi, my name is Jeffrey Tsang. I am currently at Michigan State University. I work as an academic advisor in the College of Engineering. So working with undergraduate students, I have been in the US for almost 10 years, I went to college at Oregon State University and got my bachelor's there. And then right after that, went to the University of Vermont, for my master's program in higher education and Student Affairs, and then came to Michigan for a job, they were willing to sponsor my h1 visa, and for two terms, so. And now they're sponsoring my green card. So it's been a great time at Michigan State. But I'll be here for a little bit longer, because I'll be pursuing a PhD here as well. Um, so MSU is treating me great.

 

Vicky Lee  1:17 

Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is Vicky Lee. I'm currently the international student advisor and student engagement coordinator at the office for international students and scholars at Michigan State University. I came to Michigan State actually in 2013, to pursue a bachelor's degree. Right after I finished my bachelor's at Michigan State, I went to Vanderbilt University to pursue my graduate coursework in higher education administration. Upon my graduation from Vanderbilt, I was actually able to come back to my alma mater, to an office where my interest in higher education and student first actually started, so kind of come back to full circle. unfortunate enough, the office was able to sponsor me currently as well. My role is a hybrid position where I do a little bit of immigration advising plus a little bit of engagement programming work plus a little bit of internal external campus partnership, collaboration projects and stuff. So yeah, Michigan has been great. I spend, now that I think about it probably 1/4 of my entire life in Michigan. So

 

Bianca Chau  2:31 

I wonder how you got to know each other, just because you work in the same institution doesn't mean you know each other. So could you tell us how you got to know each other?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  2:42 

Um,

 

Bianca Chau  2:43 

it's actually really interesting.

 

Jeffrey Tsang  2:45 

Late 20,

 

Vicky Lee  2:46 

it was 2015 when I was actually figuring out which graduate school to apply to, and I was like, really active in different graduate school, graduate students or student affairs face. And I was like, This name is very Hong Kong. Let's reach out. And it took him two months to respond to my first. But then we connected and then, and then fast forward to a year later, he started his position at MSU while I'm already my graduate program, and I came back to Michigan for a visit. And it just happened that I was in the international student office, turned scholar office and my former supervisor was processing his eye night and I was like, Dude, this is a Hong Kong passport.

 

Bianca Chau  3:33 

I probably when I started.

 

Vicky Lee  3:35 

Yeah, you first started. I don't know if we there. Yeah. Maybe not January, I won't drive back in January. But anyway, that's how we first met. But then we never talked at all until what happened afterwards. And the social Yeah. A colleague of mine who was also I appeared identifying was my former supervisor. She invited me to come to the some a APIDA faculty staff Association. And then that's how we, for some reason, got caught reconnected while we never talked before. And then, interestingly enough, Jeff connected me to our third roommate, via a Google Doc, where the APIDA Undergraduate Student Association was putting out demands and statements responding to COVID, about a year ago. And yeah, I've met my other roommate on a Google Doc.

 

Unknown Speaker  4:35 

And that's how the three of us kind of live together right now and really grinding through this COVID pandemic work from home time.

 

Bianca Chau  4:45 

That's awesome. It's good to have people that really understand the struggle and kind of get to struggle through together. I think that's so important. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about your identity. as being from Hong Kong, how has that shaped the way you work with students and coworkers,

 

Jeffrey Tsang  5:06 

it's interesting because even when I lived in Hong Kong, I went to, you know, international school my whole life. So I already felt, you know, different from like the locals in Hong Kong. So you already tried to differentiate yourself, like, very early in your life, and then you come to the US. And then people like, they assume that you're just like, from the area. So when I was in Oregon, they assumed I was like, you know, I grew up in like Portland or Seattle, and like, it was just very normal. And then when people when I tell people that I'm from Hong Kong, they're like, Wow, I didn't expect that. And it's interesting, because I don't think he's like, in how in Asia, you never, like, identify with being like Asian, like, that is just not something that you are cognizant of, right? Like, when you're in Asia, you're like, Oh, I'm Chinese, or I'm from Hong Kong. I'm like, that's it, right? And you don't really need to go in depth, or be like, more high level of saying, oh, I've aged, like, no, yeah, we know, you're Asian, um, but in the US, like, this whole, like Asian identity, it's, it's very different, like, you never, like no one ever tells you that, you know, when you come to the US that you form this new identity of yourself. And with say, like, you know, working with a lot of like, students from China, like, they always, like, try to, like relate with you. And I'm like, I don't really relate that much. Like, even though I was an international student. And, you know, I have that, you know, international student experience, my experience very different, because I don't have any language, like, any language barriers in class or in like, regular, like, life or getting adjusted, like my experience was very different. And I think, I think my the complexity comes with, you know, how do you identify with being Asian, Asian American? When you're not American? I think right now I identify a little bit more being American, because I'm already I've already been here for so long. But I think it's still in this like, awkward, like, hybrid phase.

 

Vicky Lee  7:34 

Yeah, I agree. I think as long as your visa holding, you're kind of in like a special category that you can really fit in. I think being from Hong Kong, I went to, I did my diploma program. So I spend my last two years of high school in an international school and all the times before that in a local secondary school and Primary School, which is elementary school. I think that would add a little bit more of like a different unique experience, or transition, transitioning from where I was to where I am right now, I definitely think that being from Hong Kong is a privilege, because you are able to interact with a lot of a very diverse group of people, even before I traveled to the US for the first time when I was 18. And of course, like coming to the US was, was still a big adjustment, but you know, I was able to find my my group off hongkongers back then to two, they were able to really empower me and support me throughout my transition. And now that I'm a staff member working in an international student scholars office, I am fortunate that you know, they understand that dynamic, that complexity, but I think working with students has been interesting though. As a lot of us know, majority of our international student population is from China and so being a Hong Kong or working with them and their family members and their parents on various platform either that be which had through zoom, you know, events and I was fortunate enough to also travel to China to meet new students and their families in those settings. It kind of put me in a very interesting spot where Okay, well do I identify myself as Chinese Chinese? Do I self disclose that I'm from Hong Kong? Or am I just gonna fake my Mandarin to a degree that they see me as part of them? I think that has been a bit challenging to to navigate. And I think that it's the same with you know, some students or other professional who are maybe from regions like Taiwan or even our country. And colleagues who are from Quebec, like, how do you, you know, identify yourself? Are you Canadian enough? Are you you know, Chinese enough? Are you Taiwanese enough? Are you Hong Kong are enough? Like, I think a lot of those things adds on to the complexity. But that experience that transition, and that whole package really challenged me to really think about diversity, equity and inclusion in a different perspective. Because I think that will allow us to really be a little more empathetic and think in a more holistic way, on how we approach the DEI and how we really think about how to support best support our students per se,

 

Bianca Chau  10:45 

How do you sort of reconcile the intersectionality of your identities of being Asian, and you know, at some point in your life, right now I consider myself especially I'm Asian, from Asia, but kind of on that spectrum of the Asian identity, I guess I'm progressing towards the Asian American part where Jeff, you mentioned a little bit about it. Um, and then now being from Hong Kong, in particular, on top of that being a visa holder. And it could be other parts of your identities. How do you navigate your identity in the APIDA community, especially at a time like this now with with COVID, and a lot of discrimination against Asian folks?

 

Vicky Lee  11:36 

Well, I guess I can kind of start off again, like, I don't particularly think that I need to, like when I first started, right, as a staff member, starting a full time job, or even during graduate school, what do I know about APIDA really, other than Oh, I'm one of the two agents in my cohort. And then after moving to moving back to Michigan for a full time job, I always just identified myself as international, I'm not exactly APIDA. And my office literally worked with the international population. And I knew majority of the staff member in that office even before I started, so I never really had to go through that transition. I always knew that already had connections, even before I got I was back. And so I think that that was something that really helped me. But it's really gradually starting from, it's just like, Bianca and I texted twice, two times, three times a week and talk about everything. And oftentimes is whenever things happen in Hong Kong, and you realize, Oh, snap, I actually wanted to talk to someone who was so far away from home to really get things processed. And that was a time when I realized, Oh, yeah, I think I really need to find a community where they would understand what I'm going through, like, not only like speaking Cantonese, that's like a different story. But, you know, I just want someone who can resonate with my experience and really get some of these incidents and, and, you know, whatever happening around the world, to just process it and make sure that I am not the only one who is feeling like isolated or struggling with getting something processed emotionally. with, you know, recent incidents and Atlanta how we have gotten, I have gotten a lot more active, involving myself in the Faculty and Staff Association for the appeared on Asian faculty and staff group in MSU. You can see like, you know, being part of that community, you're not only helping yourself, but you're also empowering students as a faculty or staff member. And from there, you can really start to really dive into what is actually the gap between, okay, what the appeal community is doing, and what my office is doing? And where's the gap? And how can I advocate for my, especially international Asian students, who which in our institution is vast majority of them, like, How can I be a voice for those students and advocate in different capacity? And how can that whole experience being involved with other faculty and staff identified as a PR Asian can also help to support my mental health being and even in some capacity, professional development as well? So

 

Jeffrey Tsang  14:42 

I think that, you know, being in the US, you can't really like differentiate yourself, you know, oh, I'm from I'm from like, Asia, Asia, like I I'm exempt from, you know, hearing, you know, being discriminated against or here Like racist things like in the grocery store, like, you can't just remove yourself from that, right, you can't remove yourself from that experience. Because other people who are doing these things they can tell, you know, you, you will be grouped together, regardless of if you like it or not, regardless of if you are vocal about it or not, like, for us that we kind of do just blend in to the US culture. And that might also, you know, just made me think about how it might also tie back into, like, our upbringing in Hong Kong, you know, being like a former, like British colony, like we were all born with, like, when it was still, you know, a British colony, and, you know, how we've always had to sort of blend in, you know, like, and you're coming from a culture where culture and a place where we are the majority to a place that you are not, I think it makes us hyper aware, because we grew up in Hong Kong, we, when we learn to, you know, blended and do not make, like, a fuss about things. But then when you finally realize that you are really in the minority, and there is actually not that many of you here, and like you can count them with like, you know, one hand then I think you realize that, you know, there is like a strength in numbers and also with like, shared experiences, because like, even even as part of the, you know, APIDA faculty and staff, community, like there are people that are probably the same, you know, situation as you or they've been in the same situation as you. And now they are, you know, either like fully like citizens because they gone through the same process as you like through work visa, and then green card, permanent residency, and then finally become a citizen. But you still know until you like, talk to them. I think there are definitely more commonalities, then you would just assume you just assume, oh, everyone was born here, you know, everyone was born here, and they grew up here the whole life, when in essence, like there is still that, you know, shared experience. So whether you you're born here, or you immigrated here, when you were young, or you came for college like us, I think that there's still that similar common experience.

 

Vicky Lee  17:42 

And I think one thing good to note is that so as being from Hong Kong, we identify as Asian Asian, we have probably encountered quite a bit of different Asians from different countries around the continent. Not continent. Is it a continent?

 

Bianca Chau  18:05 

A huge continent.

 

Vicky Lee  18:08 

Sorry

 

it's, it's more like, okay, I can kind of make an assumption based on Oh, I see Bianca, I see Jeff, oh, I think they are Chinese, like kind of, from those kind of country and region. But to other groups that are not APIDA or Asian identifying, they might not even have a cool like all of us with like dark hair, yellow skin, or just Asian. So like piggyback on what Jeff has mentioned, about like those experiences those discriminatory act, we probably will still get the same. We don't get like a special permit, just because we're from Hong Kong, that we are exempt from a lot of the discrimination or a lot of you know, being targeted in some capacity or not. And of course, you know, being a visa sponsored, individual like that is somewhere inside of us, we won't just put a sticker on our forehead and say, Hey, yo, I'm on a visa, like, that's not how it works, of course, and you are not trying or at least I am not trying to, like seek attention that way. And so in order to find someone who would really understand my struggle, I think, identify allies in this situation and finding that community. That's why that's also part of the reason why I think like being part of such a community is important. I mean, personally, like I'm still on the WeChat group with the Chinese faculty Club, which is really foreign born Chinese national faculty and staff members who are in MSU. I still get updates from them. But do I identify more with that community because more even more of them might be identified. Sponsor individual? I think it depends on what issue are you talking about, right? Like, in terms of cultural adjustments, I really don't know if that group really can provide me that much of an insight. Because, again, I've been here for a while already. I do think that Hong Kong again, has given me quite a diverse experience to start off with, language wasn't really a barrier for me. After two years in an international school, before I came to the US, I think my English is not that bad. And so I think, you know, oftentimes, it's more like, where do you opt in to be part of? And in what ways do you think that community could be beneficial to your personal development? Or how do you find that niche where you really feel like you fit in,

 

Bianca Chau  20:52 

you both mentioned, about getting support? I think with the APIDA community, I've naturally gravitated towards them. Because culturally, I feel that that would be my natural tendency to go towards if I needed some sort of support. But I have realized that in interacting with a lot of APIDA, folks is that there's a lot of trauma within that community that I don't relate with, that's very much intergenerational as well. And so that's something that I, I have felt trying to be a part of the APIDA community, as I wonder for you, where do you get your sort of support? You mentioned allies, who are your allies?

 

Jeffrey Tsang  21:40 

I think, that definitely, you know, at first, it was kind of awkward, you know, finding like community and like that APIDA community, like the Asian American community, because you feel like an outsider, because you, you don't really like you identify as Asian American, and, you know, like, in our field, you know, in higher ed and Student Affairs is your your all about connections, and you don't really, like you want to try to find people that are similar to you especially like, if you're looking for like mentorship and just people that you can go to for advice, you know, your community. But then I think that, with time, you sort of reconcile the experience that Oh, actually, like, their experience is not that significantly different than mine. And we can find, you know, that common, like common ground that like in terms of your identity, and your culture, that it's not really that much different, and they get to learn about us, you know, in ways that they probably didn't expect, either. And I feel like every time in, like, one of the faculty staff meetings, like they always learn something new about us. And I mean, I guess it's the same with them, right? I we learn new things about them like, and I think that is how we sort of like balanced Oh, well, even if you don't identify as Asian American, I get other ways to find community within the same people.

 

Vicky Lee  23:33 

Yeah. And I think like, you know, it really depends on individual preferences, right? I don't think as an Asian as a sponsored individual, who has been here for who knows how many years depending on when have you started your American dream journey? It is very hard for folks like us to find a mentor who really have who has very, very similar experience that us like, you know, like, I probably have never met anyone, like really similar to me, who is especially from Hong Kong. And so, you know, you give and take, you really try to find a mentor who can best support you. Some of my best mentor. Some of them are collocations, some of them that are rather American who has been here on refugee status and on in state here, like those are really good mentors. And I personally think that other than my really good Caucasian mentor, who has been providing me a lot of you know, professional development opportunities and really have empowered me to do something more than I could. The minority identifying mentors have really provided me insight in terms of how I can strive in the US as, quote an outsider to some degree, like We all know like being an sponsored individual, we have been called alien in literal government paperwork for years until these past past few weeks or months. And so how do you find your niche of people who would really understand where you're at? And I think for folks who have international experience, sure, but also, what are some of the people who you think can provide you with the most support that you need, for instance, Jeff has mentioned, oh, I rely on the APIDA community, because other than that piece that may be they went to school where, oh, I brought smelly lunch to school that phase, we don't go through that phase. Not saying that they would. But you know, that's like one of the examples, but the other experiences are probably very similar. I chat with my mentor who was, you know, minority identifying gives me so many advice in terms of how to strive as a minority. And I think those are still, you know, valuable, like asset for me to grow professionally or even personally, in the US. And, again, from what Jeff has mentioned, I learned new things from APIDA, faculty and staff group all the time. And I think, you know, one thing that I really think, aside from all of these is being a lifelong learner, it's like critical for us who wanted to, quote, survive, or even thrive in a foreign land, how can we bring up the best of us? And how can we empower our students to bring out the best of themselves, especially given that in my work capacity, I work with international students majority.

 

Bianca Chau  26:41 

So when sometimes I'm going through some challenges, my mom would say, remind yourself why you were there in the first place. And that will give me fire to continue, right? My family thinks I'm, like a wedding planner, almost. Like, you know, they'll tell me, you know, you wanted a life here. I myself identify as Chinese and Japanese. So, you know, being in Hong Kong was a little bit difficult for me, yes, I look like most people, but for some reason, either. It's the way I walk or whatever people in the local university, I went to knew I wasn't from there. I like exude some sort of aura that tells them I felt local. So I came here to kind of see what it's like in the US. And this, what we call the world of the land of freedom.

 

Vicky Lee  27:33 

my search committee for my current job back in 2018. They asked me what is my purpose? And like, What do you mean? What's my purpose? Like, no one has ever asked you that question. And when you brought this question up, I kind of thought about this, because back then, when I was looking for a job, after all these years of school, I did not take any time off between undergrad and grad and I graduated early in undergrad. So my purpose back then was I want to make my mom proud. I grew up in a single parent family, and my mom is the only supporter along with my grandma and my uncles and my aunts. And so I've always thought that, you know, making my mom proud is my one job. And then after I got my big girl job after grad school, first full time job that I get paid. After like a couple of weeks of working, I told my best friend at the time, I said, I don't know what my purpose is. Because I think my mom is proud of me already, then that is the time when I realized what is my own purpose. So I think you know, gradually as you really think about what you do, and how do I remind myself of that fire that I want to keep going is whenever I think about the relationship that I have built with some of the students I have worked with, I still text with a lot of them, they would come to me for relationship advice. They would come to me and ask about you know, career advice, and you would still hang out virtually or in person. When situation allows. I think those are the moments that really reminds me I've Okay, I think all along. I just wanted to help people and you know, help other people define themselves and those student leaders who are doing amazing, they're doing, they're getting their dream internship, they are doing phenomenal seeing them. And they will tell me that Oh, yeah, you know, you and another staff member was really the two that really empowered me and challenged me to be who I am today. Those are the little reminders that really somehow reminds me of who I am and what I wanted to do long term. I think those are the moments that really light that fire to be like okay, Vicky, you can persist and keep going on. I'm really not in this job for the money. I'm really in this job for the satisfaction.

 

Jeffrey Tsang  30:03 

I think that, you know, having spent so much time in the US already is sort of like your motivation to keep going. Because even if I feel like if we go back to Hong Kong, it's not the same anymore. You know, like, besides the fact with, you know, everything that's happening, you know, it's just that you've been gone for so long, like, I've been gone for 10 years. And it even like, every time I go back, it's kind of like a familiar but unfamiliar place. Like, you can still remember some other things, but like, some of the some of the environment is just so different.

 

Vicky Lee  30:49 

Part of it is also maybe the three of us would agree on the same thing. It's like, Student Affairs is such a westernized idea that really only the US, Canada, and maybe Germany, in some part of Europe really values this. And so oftentimes, when I'm like, okay, mom wants me to go back to Hong Kong to, you know, move back just for the sake of moving back, I don't know what job can I find, I think that is something that I'm like, maybe I should just stay for a little longer to really figure out to recalibrate what I can do, other than in higher ed and Student Affairs, that maybe by that time, that might be a time where I can, you know, move to a new place, as in either moving back to Hong Kong or moving to another place to continue my professional and personal development.

 

Bianca Chau  31:39 

I think what you're talking about is also part of the pain points, and maybe even beauty of just progressing through life as a young adult, it's also trying to navigate life itself, and then also life here in the US. So last, but not least, I'd like to ask, do you have any words of wisdom to any international folks that are pursuing a life here in the US, and especially a career in Student Services,

 

Jeffrey Tsang  32:09 

I think my advice would be to get as much feedback and input as you can from people you trust. And then also make your own decisions, because I think you so many people can tell you about all the different ways you can get into this field, that you can stay in the US. But at the end of the day, like, so many of it won't apply to you. Because they come from a completely different situation. You know, even I think for the three of us, like, we also had a very different situation in terms of like, how we got to the US how we got our sponsorship, and what's next for us. And I think, you know, gathering as much information and, you know, hearing from as many people as you can, and obviously, don't spend all your time doing that. But I think, you know, the more you can hear about, like, the different scenarios people have gone through, and the different ways they've been able to, you know, manage all of this, the better because, you know, the more information you have, the better you are equipped to, you know, make the decision for yourself, like, whether that's how to negotiate with your employer, or, you know, okay, my, my, my work pieces of what now, and obviously, like, I had to talk to so many people to figure out. When was the right time to ask about permanent residency? Because I didn't want to wait until like, my last year of my h1 bgb asking for residency. So I asked, you know, as soon as they renewed by my age, like I asked him, yeah, my second term he I asked, because, you know, that seemed like, the best time and it was before COVID. So we'll try to like, you know, start the process early. Obviously, I didn't know that it was going to turn into this. But, um, and yeah, I mean, like, even if I was to give advice to others, I mean, I would tell them, but it's sort of like a, there's also a disclaimer, like, we also have been working in a very unique situation that might not happen in our lifetime, like ever again. So, you know, listen to as much feedback as you can and then make your own decision.

 

Vicky Lee  34:39 

Yeah,

 

I'm totally agree with what Jeff just mentioned, I think I'm going to tackle it a little

 

differently with three different approaches, just because I'm very type A. I think number one, definitely persistence is critical for international students, and especially folks like us who does who may or may not have a stem background, just because As rpts limited your skill set is not as, quote, technical, whether your position can be justified as a specialty occupation or not, I think, like really having that grid having that persistence in terms of okay. At what point should I take a break and self care at what point should I persist through? I think that is critical. And that also comes back to why I support and a community is extremely critical. Like, I really don't know how many times have, I really reach out to be our guy and talk about all the visa related frustration that I've been through over the past who knows how many years, even though I myself does part of the immigration advising pieces, my daily job. And I think, number two is, as someone who came to the US to start an undergraduate degree, I never knew of the field officer first before before then. And so this field, higher education and Student Affairs was really new to me. And I think once you were able to identify that passion of yours, either that be late in undergrad or during graduate school, you really found that specific functional area that you're interested in, really, from there start to do your networking either. That'd be two different Facebook groups that are kind of set up specifically for essay pros, essay grads, reach out to your allies. Some would argue, you know, joining professional association would help. I think that is kind of like a personal decision, it really depends. But that is really the time where once you know which functional area really focus on that and kind of develop and see where we can get from here to there.

 

And I think last piece of advice, I think this is going to be really practical and to really know about immigration stuff. Like either that'd be basic f1 benefits OPT CPT. Either, that'd be knowing the pathway to permanent residency from F visa to H, green card, like knowing the basic, I think is critical so that you can manage your own expectation moving forward, there is no, you know, there's really no, nothing that is like, like a magic, right, like immigration regulation is very black and white. And sometimes you just need to manage your expectation as much as we know that we wanted to stay, we wanted to continue, what are some of the possible pathways or plan B, so you can take on this journey? I think that is extremely critical as well. But ultimately, I know like, these last words of wisdoms might be very harsh, or, you know, to some degree practical and also discouraging to some degree, but that, again, it comes back to how can you find your community so that you will know that you're not the only one going through that like, I cannot even imagine if I have not met your guy and some other professionals, when I was in grad school, how was I able to get through that job search process, because you get way more rejection than your other cohort mates who might be applying for jobs at the same time, you will have a lot more limitation depending on your own job search criteria. And all you are going to be defeated a lot more times compared to your your cohort made given that, you know, job search for domestic students are already challenging. So how do you find your support? I think that is also extremely critical as well.

 

Bianca Chau  38:41 

Thank you so much for sharing your story and words of wisdom. I feel so empowered just by talking to you this morning. And I I know that others will feel the same way after listening to this. And I definitely look forward to conversations like this periodically. And even though we are so far from each other, I think one of the strengths of international folks is that we're actually pretty good at long distance relationships, whether that's friendship, relationship with parents and even romantic relationships and that we have that grit that Vicky was saying to move forward.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai